Episode 2: Linda Herman and Jill Hutchison

John Twork 00:09
Welcome to Redbird buzz I'm John Twork from University Marketing and Communications. Our guest today loved sports from a young age but grew up during a time when it wasn't socially acceptable for girls and women to play competitively. Unsatisfied with the status quo, they devoted their careers and lives to rewriting the narrative of collegiate women's athletics. Dr. Jill Hutchison is a Women's Basketball Hall of Famer and a member of the Illinois State Athletics Percy Hall of Fame. She spent 28 seasons as the head women's basketball coach at ISU, was a four time National President of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association, and is credited for influencing nationwide growth of the women's game. Dr. Linda Herman is an American volleyball Coaches Association Hall of Famer and an ISU athletics Percy Hall of Famer, who spent two decades as ISU, Senior Associate Director of Athletics and senior women's administrator following seven seasons as ISU's head volleyball coach, Hutchison and Herman both played essential roles at Illinois State and on the national level, advocating for gender equity and college sports and advancing women's athletics in the wake of Title IX, which was signed into law 50 years ago. It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Jill Hutchison and Dr. Linda Herman to Redbird Buzz from Redbird Arena, Jill and Linda, what's the word redbirds? We're in the midst of a year long celebration of the 50th anniversary of the adoption of Title IX which culminates with a celebratory weekend of events on campus June 24, through the 26th. Jill, can you tell us a little bit more about what's being planned for that weekend?

Jill Hutchison 02:00
Absolutely. John, we're excited about it. We're hoping to bring back as many former female student athletes as we possibly can. In the weekend we'll kick off with a reception Friday night in Redbird arena. More than anything is socialization time for people to get together with their teammates. Then Saturday, we will have a leadership seminar with three of our former student athletes as facilitators, and a keynote presentation by President Kinzy. Then that afternoon, we'll have what we call team time, they can go play golf, they can play cornhole, they can go play racquetball or whatever. And then that night, we'll have a culminating banquet with many of our student athletes presenting and Dr. Kinzy again, with final comments.

John Twork 02:55
Looking forward to that, and we'll share a link as to how folks can register for that, within the description of this podcast. I want to talk about each of you who have played a profound role in the growth of women's athletics here at Illinois State and across the country. Jill, starting with you, I want to hear your story about how you developed a love for sports during a time when it wasn't widely socially acceptable for girls to play competitive sports. And how did you end up at Illinois State?

Jill Hutchison 03:22
It's been an interesting journey, John, I was an Army brat. And I can remember when I was in like seventh grade, all we did in PE class was march and I just hated it. We were fortunate to get transferred to Albuquerque, New Mexico. And the PE teacher there had an extensive extensive program in what we call the extramurals, which would be sports days, that most people don't understand in these days; a sports day would bring teams from several schools together at one site, we'd play four or five contests, we'd officiate when we weren't playing, we'd coach ourselves. Anyway, it was a great experience. And after I went to college at New Mexico, my, my PE teacher had been a graduate of Illinois State. And she had encouraged me to come here and they had the equipment I wanted to do my master's thesis. So I came to ISU, and I couldn't have been happier with my decision.

John Twork 04:25
And, Linda, same question to you, during a time when it wasn't socially acceptable for girls to really be involved in competitive sports. What drove your passion and how did you end up here?

Linda Herman 04:36
Yeah, it's a fun question. And Jill and I are the same era. But you know, our backgrounds are a little different because she traveled all over the world, and I grew up in the country. So I'm a little country girl, but -- I love sports. I think I was born that way. But my dad was a little league coach. And at that time, there was no organized sports that you would recognize today like youth Sports and structured sports. So everything was what there was ASA softball. But that wasn't until you would get a little older. My dad was a little league coach, and I wanted to play baseball. And that's all I knew. So he let me play on his team. And my very first experience was, we go to the county tournament, and all of a sudden, I wasn't allowed to play and Little League rulebook says no girls. Well, that was my first experience with like, oh my gosh, this just may not why is this not--Just not right? There was a time you didn't sue to have a chance to play. So you just accepted it. But deep down in my heart, I always thought God it's just not right and so but you're still driven to want to play and so I took every avenue that I could. In high school, we had GAA, which was girls athletic association. It's a little bit like what Jill talked about play days, sports days, but you would go to another gym and play with different teams, but they'd have to mix you up. You never played Valparaiso High School against Chesterton. So there was no competition. But I think the other thing that struck me is that socially, I think Jill and I would both say this at that time, socially, before Title IX, and before it was socially acceptable, we were called tomboys. And I would have loved to been able to have been called a student athlete. So you grew through that, and you went through that cultural change, and we lived it. And now we've watched it. And it's just a wonderful opportunity to see what the difference of Title IX made and getting into sport. So yeah, it took me but I would say this is the only way that you could follow sports--and Jill and I could --was to be a physical education teacher. We were pigeon holed to be nurses, secretaries, teachers. So we didn't have all those avenues to the professions that we do today. So my, my approach was my Avenue was to be a physical education teacher--never dreamt the being a coach and administrator.

John Twork 07:01
And that's how you ended up at Illinois State. Right?

Linda Herman 07:03
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'd already taught high school. But I wanted to come over here and do my masters. And maybe we can talk about that as we go along. But sure that 1972 When I came over here as a graduate assistant, changed my destiny.

John Twork 07:19
And as it turns out, there were women and girls who were wanting to play sports decades before the two of you and it was happening to an extent here at Illinois State. Jill, you're --along with being a Hall of Fame coach--you have a lot of titles, but kind of women's athletics historian here at Illinois State is one that I would say as well. And, and there's a there's a really significant history here at Illinois State tied to the physical education program. Can you talk about how far back that goes and how significant it is?

Jill Hutchison 07:45
Yeah, I've always wondered how we got where we were. And so I tried to study it, especially on our campus, and we could trace women's sports at ISU clear back to 1898. When they had there were like sororities, but they're academic sororities, and they would play each other in basketball. And it was within what was it a year after Naismith designed the game, and it howed up here on our campus, and we've got pictures in in yearbooks of gals playing in their bloomers and stuff. If you took it through the 20s and 30s, field hockey was super popular. And they had a WAA organization back then, like Linda referred to in the high schools, where they would they would play like the alums against the current athletes or even the faculty against the current team. But I mean, that was it. It was like two or three games a season probably. And then in the in the 30s and early 40s, maybe; it was like there was this, this aura over physical education that it should not be competitive, that it wasn't lady like and it forced everything into calisthenics, marching and those kinds of things. In 19, like 48, I think it was--45--a lady named Esther French came to campus and she was from Iowa. She had played I apparently, you know, basketball in Iowa. And she brought that love with her. She's the one that started the sports day programs on campus here. And people even in the 40s talk about those experiences. They lasted well into the late 60s when we continue to have sports days and events. And it wasn't until late like 68, 69, 70 when we started really competing with different schools and had opportunities for intercollegiate competition.

John Twork 09:58
But through those sports days, that was creating physical education teachers who are going to places like New Mexico, where Jill Hutchison was a student in a high school class and inspiring young girls to know that, hey, I can have a future in sports, even if that is as a physical education teacher, right?

Jill Hutchison 10:18
Without a doubt. And actually, the high school IHSA program was really initiated by a whole lot of graduates from Illinois State University--women who had played in those sports days and that love the competition and love the opportunities took that into their high school programs. And we could give them thanks for how that program evolved as well as it did and as quickly as it did. Very many of the high school teachers were from Illinois State. We had 800 majors in women's physical education when I arrived here in '68.

John Twork 10:56
Wow. And Dr. Phoebe Scott was was a big part of that. Linda, can you talk a little bit about the significance of some leadership? You know, you spent 20 years as an administrator, but there were some really significant leaders before your time. And Dr. Phoebe Scott and Dr. Laurie Mabry what what significant roles did those two play in really creating a solid foundation for women's athletics?

Linda Herman 11:18
You know, when I was in high school, and before I came over to do my Masters, I think you kind of research where you want to do your masters. And I did that and as I was researching at Illinois State was just like at the forefront of leadership. Phoebe Scott being one of them. I didn't know Esther French, obviously, but and Phoebe Scott had such a national reputation and Jill probably she was here really under her tenure longer than I was and might be able to speak to what she did in the athletic world. But they were at the forefront of creating opportunities or providing opportunities for women to pursue their dreams. And I came over here also because of Laurie Mabry because I wanted to do my masters and I did my masters under golf, and she was a golf instructor. But, you know, Laurie was our only Women's Athletic Director, Jill served as an interim athletic director, and I certainly have done that too. But those those people were nationally recognized. I mean, if you look at Laurie, she went to Congress to actually testify on behalf of Title IX. She was supportive of creating opportunities and letting like Jill run the first women's national basketball championship here. So because they let us pursue our dreams and they had that competitive spirit, I think we all cherish the fact that we've stood on the shoulders of leaders like Phoebe Scott and Laurie Mabry. And they just, they did so much in just terms--and Laurie was an AIAW national leader and President so and then we might not have time to talk about AIAW and NCAA, but she certainly was a president of a national association that govern women's sports. So major,

John Twork 13:07
yeah, and AIAW standing for the Association for intercollegiate athletics for women, right. The predecessor to the NCAA before women's athletics merged with men's and the AIAW, college basketball national championship was held here at Illinois State in March of 1972. Just a few months before Title Nine was passed. Just before that the redbird softball team participated in the 1969 College World Series, which was the first ever. Melinda Fisher was a freshman on the team. Jill, you were a graduate assistant coach. And then right after that, Illinois State hosted the first commission on intercollegiate athletics for women National Swimming and Diving championship in 1970. So some major events that Illinois State women's athletics played a role in. Jill, can you talk about you were part of all three of those. What was the significance of all those?

Jill Hutchison 14:01
They were huge. Yeah. And there was also a national Invitational women's basketball that's that started in 67. ISU was invited in 68 and 69. Only 16 teams in the nation were invited to that. So those things, and Phoebe Scott had been president of a national organization, the division for girls and women's sport, which at the time controlled all of women's sports. She initiated the organization called CIAW, which was the Commission for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. It was not an institutional organization like AIAW but it was the one that sponsored all those events about what you're speaking. And once those were approved by CIAW. Then physical educators felt comfortable sending teams to those kinds of events if they were invited. And of course, that was very selective. So I think it just showed that there was the interest. There was a trend. We were going that direction. Title IX, just jumped started the rest of it. But I think the interest and the drive was already there before Title IX ever hit the scene. And all of it was part of the women's lib movement of the 60s.

John Twork 15:26
Yeah, it seems like that women's basketball tournament being held in Horton, that was a big deal, right. And, and some of the, some of the names of people who played in that tournament or coached in that tournament, became Olympians. And you know, Pat Summitt played for UT Martin in that in that tournament, you know, just you coached in the tournament, right along with organizing it? Just what was that moment like having all those teams in Horton Field House and it had to be the start of something huge.

Jill Hutchison 15:57
It was it was it was spectacular, in my mind, because it was the first national event that required qualifying. So we--in the process of getting to that, we had to set up all the qualification rounds. And one of the nice things about AI w is it was set up geographically. So it was state, regional, national competition, which gave you natural rivalries, so different from conferences, and now conference, obviously are even more spread out across the country. So state, if you won state, you got to go to regional, if you won regional, you got to go to national and so qualifying and setting up the officials and finally seeing all of that come to fruition and knowing that we really, really had something special there. And you're right--there were there were some special people in that event. Pat Summitt was one of them. Teresa grants who had been at Illinois was another. She's going into the Hall of Fame this year. I think so is Marianne Stanley, who was a point guard at Immaculata. I mean, there were just all kinds of names we could throw out there that people would probably recognize, but it was a huge event. And we were really proud to host it in Horton Fieldhouse at ISU.

John Twork 17:21
And as I mentioned, it was just a few months before Title Nine was officially passed. That was in June of 1972. And schools had until 1978, to comply with its athletics requirements. Jill, you were a coach before during the implementation and after, can you talk about what what was that experience like? It's, it's striking to me, there's actually nothing in Title IX that says athletics. And so I imagine that, you know, it maybe wasn't even obvious at first that hey, this is going to change the game literally. Right?

Jill Hutchison 17:53
It was an accident. Yeah. [laughing] Yeah, it was designed for access for women, to higher education to professional schools, in particular, to doctoral programs. At the time, probably 2% of the individuals in med schools, vet schools, you know, law schools were women, and they were denied positions in college, colleges to teach because they were women. I mean, point blank. That was the reason given. So Bunny Sandler was the instigator of Title IX because she wanted to be in a doctoral program in Psych. And she got some help from Birch Bly. Oh, worked with Bly from Indiana who was a senator at the time. And so it passed. But the sidebar was athletics. And once they realize that any, any program in an educational institution that receives federal funds is affected, that had a huge impact on athletics, much to the chagrin of the our male counterparts at the time, because, you know, there was only so much money to be had in it had to be split. It wasn't when we were getting television revenue and boosters, were throwing millions of dollars into it. It was student fees, predominantly, and things like that, and gate revenue. So there wasn't a great desire to share. And I don't blame them. I totally understand that concept. So going through that...I mean, back in the day in the early 70s, we we we shared uniforms from one team to the next. We drove station wagons, and if we took we had four teams in basketball. If we went to a game we took two teams. Well, that would take four station wagons, there's only two coaches, two kids drove the cars. We we put pushed them out of many of

John Twork 20:03
snowdrift?

Jill Hutchison 20:05
to say the least. And we didn't have help with, with facilities, we swept the floors, we set up the chairs, we would put a chain link fence on the back of a car and drag a softball diamond, we'd make the kids stand on the fence so we had more weight. I mean, we just did everything. And you know, we were so happy to have the opportunity to play and those players would tell you, it--it just floated their boats, it was just the funnest thing for them to have the opportunity. You didn't really resent the fact that we didn't have the same kinds of things that the men had. But as we got into all of the regulations of Title IX, it became more and more apparent that there had to be more sharing and there had to be more equity.

John Twork 20:56
And Linda, you touched on earlier, I think a fascinating part of Illinois State's history with Title IX, which is that Laurie Mabry actually testified before Congress, as Title IX seemed almost inevitable that it would be repealed or it was at least facing some pretty harsh criticism at the time. Can you talk a little bit more about that vital role that she played at that pivotal point in history?

Linda Herman 21:18
Yeah. And actually, Jill testified in Congress also. So it's kind of a sidebar, too, but yeah, I think, you know, and Laurie, you know, I'll go back to the fact that she was a president of a IW, because the real significance of that is that title nine is passed in 1972. And then the OCR regulations really weren't effective until almost 1976. But at that time, you had to have some kind of governance organization, well the NCAA really didn't really want women. And we can really ask, so talk about the transition from the Gateway conference to the Valley. I mean, all that kind of intertwines there. But you know, Lori, women like Lori Mabry were the real path leaders in creating the pathway to governance of women's athletics. And that was the first one was the AIAW, which existed from 1972 to 1982. So her role in that was establishing how we recruit recruiting, we didn't-AIAW didn't do home visits, all your recruiting was done on campus, you had tryouts. So they had some sanity, that they and they didn't really want to follow the male model of the NCAA at the time. Obviously, there's some, the history unfolds as we get to 1982. And then the NCAA really absorbs women's athletics. And we start to not having AIAW championships, as Jill talked about with state, regional and national competitions. Now we move to the NCAA, and everything is by conference. So we've moved to that era, and then we can move forward. I don't know how far we want to go with that, and how much time we have to lead to the different types of governance organizations. But, you know, back to what Jill touched on--1972, when you have the OCR regulations, money had to come from somewhere. And all that created some animosity, I really believe with the men and how they looked at women. And so we had a lot of, really, in my opinion, those were the tough times. They were tough, because we really, they didn't want us. And I could see why. I mean, it changed their world also. So you live through those changes, and then you find a way to come back to some commonality and you hope that you have at the end for the spirit of competition that's equitable, which it goes all back to gender equity.

John Twork 23:45
And that leads perfectly into you when the NCAA took over control of women's athletics. Jill, you were the Interim Director of Athletics, the first Director of Athletics under a combined men's and women's athletic program. And then Linda, you became the senior women's administrator, the deputy athletic director, right after that--you decided to give up a really successful Hall of Fame, volleyball coaching career,

Linda Herman 24:15
I didn't know what I was doing.

John Twork 24:16
You had to know what you're getting yourself into, right?

Linda Herman 24:19
I don't know. But I left the next coach, a really good group of kids that no, they were awesome. But yeah, I just I just thought, you know, I didn't grow up with volleyball. I mean, Jill grew up with basketball. I mean, she and I and so for me for I don't know, it was just one of those things that I thought, well volleyball is not going to be my total pathway. So and I did my doctorate here, and I thought I, I really wanted to be able to make a difference probably more than just what I could do in coaching and support people like Jill, if I could, and then try to support women's athletics in general and maybe not just in one sport. So you know, it was it was really something that became a blessing for me in disguise. But, you know, we moved into those roles. And then we moved into different eras of the Missouri Valley Conference, the Gateway Conference. So it different types of leadership, but you had to learn to create a place for yourself almost at the seat at the table.

John Twork 25:19
And something that you and I have talked about before is that, you know, though, you've certainly faced a lot of challenges, and it was an uphill battle, you did find allies on campus, especially in the president's office, right? Throughout history.

Linda Herman 25:33
Yeah. And I mean, Joe and I both have been a part of that. But we can go all the way back to Lloyd Watkins, who was really very supportive of Jill and very supportive really of me and really informing the Gateway Collegiate Athletic Conference, which preceded the the Missouri Valley Conference, primarily because the Missouri Valley didn't want women at the time, for reasons we've all already discussed. But yeah, President Lloyd Watkins, President David Strand, was really the President that really had to initiate and put in place all the OCR regulations, which had to create scholarships for women. So he had the enviable task of taking money from the men's side and moving it over to the women's side. So you know, he, he just did that so graciously, in his own way, it was amazing. But yeah, and always, always supportive. I can't think of a president there really, at Illinois State that has not supported women's athletics, it's really been a ver--privilege of our institution to have that kind of leadership. So I just am very proud of the fact of how Illinois State has supported women's athletics throughout our history.

John Twork 26:52
And as you reflect on, you know, it's been 50 years since since Title IX was, was passed. And I'll ask both of you to reflect a little bit here as we wind down our conversation. And, Jill, I'll start with you, you know, how far have we come? And how far do we need to go in the next 50 years related to women's athletics at the college level,

Jill Hutchison 27:12
Great question, John. Participation has increased exponentially in high school college, and it's trickled into the Olympic level and professionals. So the participation is probably the biggest single improvement in progress of Title IX. I think opportunities for women in higher education have grown just as much as they have in sports. And those kinds of things have been the biggest improvements as a result of Title IX. Are we there yet? No, we're not. And we need this next generation to pick up the baton and carry it a little you--and I had done some some media stuff. To me, that has become a bigger issue than it was even 10 years ago, because media attention is stoking college athletics, it's paying the bills. And right now, women's sports are 5% of the national media coverage of sports. And the majority of that 5% is coming from the soccer, national events, the World Cup, the Olympics, you know, any of their international events, and the Olympics and gymnastics in the Olympics, and and skating in the Olympics. And so, when you take even those things out, it's even a smaller percentage. Well, I think, and I've always, this has always been my argument for years and years, which comes first the chicken or the egg? Do you promote it? And then they come? Or do they come and then you can keep promoting it? And and I think it's, it's like the baseball field, you build it, and they'll come. So, you know, I think the more we promote women's sports, the more attention they get, the more it's going to grow, the more it will become revenue producing, the more it'll pay for itself. And the more socially acceptable, it will continue to grow. And I think all of those are huge parts of what we've got to do in the future. There's a couple more things that I think Linda can address. But from my perspective, that's become a huge one because it's funding college athletics.

John Twork 27:31
Followthe money. That's right. Linda, same question to you. How far have we come and where do we need to go?

Linda Herman 29:27
Well, piggyback what Jill said I meant that participation is seismic--I mean, it's we've gone from like, one in 27 kids playing sports 1972 And now it's like in our even on our college campuses, it's 45 to 50%. So Um, and then a little bit what to Jill said, you know, in terms about the media coverage, and some of our issues are pay equity. Same job for the I mean, same pay for the same job. But when Jill talks about, like the visibility and the sports and the revenue, when you think about that, then all those sports that are getting the revenue, turn into merchandise, they turn into revenue producing, and then it turns into salaries. So if we can gain gain big strides with revenue, that changes--that impacts pay equity, I mean, so you have those resources. And the thing that always hits my mind as you go back to 1972, and our leadership, leadership--95% of women's sports were governed by women. Those were the athletic directors, 95% of them were women, that all change with the NCAA. So now what do we have today? 43% of our women's sports are coached by women--43%. So what's happened with leadership? If you just took the conglomerate, only, women are only in 20% of all the available positions in athletic administration, so that--80% Of all the positions are filled by men in athletic administration. That's a conglomerate of Division One, two, and three, and then all positions-- assistants, etc. So leadership, to me is a big issue, and how that we can go back to what Jill said. And I think I go on to with some other stats that I like to talk about, but probably don't have time. So to go back what Jill was talking about, why are we celebrating we're celebrating the past, we're celebrating the strides of Title IX and the participation opportunities. That was what it was all about. And then what do we want to do? We want to inspire our younger generation and inspire other people to talk--title IX is not a given. It's a federal law. So are we just going to assume that it can never be changed? So we hope that we inspire young people to think about the past but also to like Jill said, Take the baton, see what needs to be done. Find a way make a difference BE THE CHANGE.

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